Posts by Cold Steel

15

Did Moses prophesy falsely? Is it always unforgivable?

by DATA-DOG in

Cold Steel

No one denies the scriptures spoke of slavery, but the Israelites were not under the same restrictions as the people who were enslaved. Thus, an Israelite father could not sell his daughter into slavery, but he could give them as wives. Nowhere is rape condoned in the scriptures you supplied.

Slavery, for good or for worse, was a practice of the times. I recommend the following for further background information.

A 'Slave' of Christ Jesus: Ancient Slavery As a Biblical Metaphor for Salvation

In our modern context, we naturally reflect on the cruel and inhumane nineteenth-century American slavery when approaching the topic. This would be harmful in the case of the ancient world, as the slavery known to the biblical writers was quite different. Generally speaking, the relationship between master and slave in the ancient world was much more civilized and compassionate than the modern model with which we are familiar.

As stated in the article, slavery then was completely different than it was later in history, such as under Rome, the Turks, and African slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. Jesus never preached against slavery, but urged that slaves be loyal to their masters and to seek first the Kingdom of God. It is further evidence that he was no social reformer, but taught that this life was the time to prepare to meet God, and that was to take precedent over everything else. So while Jesus never condemned slavery (that wasn't his mission), he never condoned it, either. But it was part of a Law that was very moralistic in my view.

5

Callings and Ordinations in the JWs

by Cold Steel in

is it true that the jws doesn't consider itself a church?.

if so, how do they claim the authority to baptize?

and if they are a church, are there any ordinations?

Cold Steel

Is it true that the JWs doesn't consider itself a church?

If so, how do they claim the authority to baptize? And if they are a church, are there any ordinations? For example, when someone becomes a member of the Governing Body, are they ordained (as were the apostles and prophets)? Jesus Himself ordained the Twelve saying, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ORDAINED YOU." Since GB members like to compare themselves with the first century Twelve, shouldn't they, and the overseers and elders, be ordained?

I think they also consider themselves to be the "Kingdom" mentioned by Daniel in the second chapter?

12

I'll Take Your Literature if You Take Mine

by VM44 in

in the september, 2013 okm, september, on page 3 appears "i'll take your literature if you take mine.".

that is the proposition of some householders.

since we do not exchange our bible study aids for religious literature that disseminates error, how might we answer tactfully?

Cold Steel

On the one hand, the JWs are told that they need to understand other religions, then, on the other hand, they're told not to read anyone else's literature. Why is this? Do they fear their missionaries...er...publishers...becoming converted? Or do they fear they might see other interpretations of scripture which might make better sense.

When I took the "Bible study" the JWs first offered me, I thought it would be a Bible study. Instead, they gave me a tiny book and asked me strawman questions. As a Mormon, I didn't want to tell them of my religion, but they kept persisting in asking me. Not knowing any better, I tried reasoning with them. "If I tell you my religion," I told them, "you'll start talking about what's wrong with it rather than telling me what you think about yours." They assured me they would not, so I asked them that since I didn't agree with most of their "answers" in the book, whether it would be okay if we just proceeded with the study.

We got through that session just fine, but the next time they came, they brought an "elder" with them. This guy immediately began asking me questions and it wasn't long before I could tell he had been reading anti-Mormon literature. That was fine with me, but he began to be aggressive and eventually downright mean spirited. He leaned forward while the other two fellows looked at him as though he were Ghandi. From what he was saying, I could even tell which books he'd been reading. I persisted, answering his questions and at the end, he would barely shake my hand. When they left, the other two said they would call me for my next session. They never did. I never saw any of the three again.

If someone was going to learn about another religion, I'd expect them to read the source material including the foundational literature. I wondered how the elder would have responded had I pulled out my copy of "Dr." Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults and began reading to him the chapter on Jehovah's Witnesses? Wouldn't he have suggested that I read his literature instead of someone's who was so blatantly anti-JW?

So how can they know anything about a religion without reading about it? And of course there's the obvious hypocrisy in the expectation that you read their literature while they toss yours into the nearest waste bin. Obviously, most people who have religious material can answer a stupid question like, "What does this say about the solution to mankind's problems?" Gee, what if the guy answers the question, what do you do then?

If publishers agree to read someone's literature if he reads theirs, can they get in trouble with their leaders? What if the guy's an elder? Does he have permission to read it? How does it work??

15

The Governing Body Are Like Sea Captains On The Titanic Encouraging Passengers Not To Get In The Life Boats Till It Sinks

by frankiespeakin in

they are in serious denial over all the evidence that the ship/organization is going down in the sea of the ocean of information hit by the internet iceberg.

they want to milk the rank and file from as much($&labor) as they can get from them before the ship sinks into notorious oblivian.. we should expect this mentality to lead them into desperate measures lacking all sense just as hitler faced his last days directing his generals into deadly manuvers dispite their objections.

a desperate man driven by fear and in denial rushing headlong into defeat so obvious, some high ranking military men tried to kill him but failed.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/adolf_hitler.

Cold Steel

Let's not get overly dramatic here. We have to remember that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a flash in a very small pan.

And you should not underestimate the power of mind control the organization exerts. The greatest threat to the Society is, frankly, its awful eschatology and scriptural exegeses. It would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to convert people who knew anything about biblical eschatology and even basic scriptural interpretation.

Armageddon, for example, is a deathblow to the so-called "bible scholars" of the Watchtower Society. Individual members who know and have read about Armageddon in its proper context know that the battle will be fought, not in Bethel and not in the Western Hemisphere, but in Jerusalem. This battle is designed specifically to bring the Jews to Christ. One reason the Jews rejected Jesus was that they were looking for a military savior, not a spiritual savior. Their messianic expectations were to be rescued from a power of a despotic leader of great power...like Rome. Thus, when three Roman legions converged on the holy city, the Jews expected their messiah to appear and save them. (After all, it was prophesied by many of their prophets, like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Malachi.) And they would have been right had they picked the right time and the right enemy. But nearly all Christians know about this and have written about it. But the GB has decreed that the Society's members would be in a state of apostasy if they read literature by other Christian sects. So the JW membership live in ignorance reading, not the Bible, but articles about the Bible; and stilted articles at that.

To faithful members of the Society I say, just read what the Bible says about Armageddon and see if the GB's interpretation makes sense. What the GB does to remain in power is to put themselves into the same category as the ancient apostles, then they have the membership read and discuss the publications of the church. Those publications use an unusual, but effective, mind control device. First, it asks a seemingly innocent rhetorical question, then it provides an answer from the Bible. "Where and when will the battle of Armageddon be fought? The Bible provides the answer. It will be fought all over the world and seek the destruction of Jehovah's people." And that's why we have former members on this board who still think Armageddon is what the Society told them it was!

It's one reason that no one takes the JWs seriously, not that the Society cares. But as more members begin to pursue higher education (against the GB's wishes), you can expect more of an exodus. But the religion really is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

24

Funny demon conversation

by problemaddict in

minimus inspired me to recall a crazy conversation i had with a houseguest at my home while i was one of jw's and even serving.

i had a houseguest say that she couldn't sleep all night, and then she found a birthday card in her friends room that someone at work gave her innocently enough.

she burned it and said she could finally sleep.. i asked her if she knew how long ago her friends birthday was?

Cold Steel

-= My True Story =-

I’m not overly superstitious, but years ago in Hawaii, I had a spate of bad luck. The horrible sunburn I got was no mystery; neither was the horrible stomach flu; however, every time I went to Honolulu in a friend’s car, the damn thing broke down. It got so bad that I refused to go by car and I resolved to go by bus. It broke down and I had to wait three hours for a new bus to be dispatched. Then one day, I got off the bus at a place called “Valley of the Temple” to buy a calculator for a math course I was taking. The next four buses failed to show and then a couple of big Polynesians who had been drinking walk by and they beat me to a pulp. I eventually was able to flee and they were close behind. I started knocking on doors randomly but couldn’t stay long enough to wait for an answer. Finally, I knocked on a door and immediately a huge Tongan opened the door. He grabbed me and said, “Who did this to you?” All I could do was point and he rushed outside.

The bad guys took one look at him and suddenly remembered they had to be somewhere else. This fellow who helped me—his family was Seventh Day Adventists—and he helped treat my wounds and then, with his family, drove me 30 miles to a 24-hour clinic next to my University. I’ll never forget what he did for me. I had to wear a waterproof nylon cast and was in such pain for a couple of weeks that I was popping Percodan like M&Ms! After two weeks, I went for a dive with my dive class and bought a new facemask and snorkel (my old ones being stolen by the muggers). Halfway out to the dive site, the mask began leaking and I came this close to drowning. Only by sheer will did I manage to make it back to the dive site. The instructor’s son, not realizing what the problem was, tried his best to make me stop using my regulator and kept pulling it out of my mouth. Later, when he learned what the situation was, he apologized, but he’d pretty much done all he could to kill me.

It was one thing after another. Then I left the island and headed back home. But the bad luck continued. Then I became really superstitious. I began to rid myself of everything I’d gotten in Hawaii. I gave away shirts and souvenirs and then...everything went back to normal. I didn’t know why and I didn’t care.

Then a few years later, I was talking to a friend of mine, a Navy Captain who had been assigned to head up all three Navy hospitals in Hawaii. I told him my experience expecting him to laugh it off. Instead, he asked, “Was one of the things you threw away a piece of lava?”

“Yeah,” I said. “It was from the big island and carved into the form of Madam Pele, a local goddess.”

He nodded and said, “Well, that was probably it.” He went on to explain that it wasn’t that it was carved in the form of a goddess that was the problem. It was the lava itself. In fact, he said, he had visited the visitor’s center on the island and had seen a room with letters posted by people who had taken lava from the big island and had been smitten with horrible luck. Eventually, they sent the lava back with a letter apologizing for taking it. A friend had given me the lava form as a welcoming gift to Oahu. I explained to my Navy friend that I hadn’t returned the lava, but had just thrown it away. He shrugged and said, “Whatever works.”

“Tom,” I said. “You’re pretty level headed. Do you believe all this ‘curse’ business?”

“No,” he replied. “But then, I wouldn’t take any lava away from the island, and if I had a piece, I’d probably get rid of it.” He said the visitor’s center gets hundreds of letters with pieces of lava enclosed. They posted the letters and rotated them frequently.

“But you said you weren’t superstitious,” I said.

“Yep,” he replied, leaning back in his chair. “But why take the chance?”

Lava Rock Curse
How to Avoid the Lava Curse
Snopes Review of the Lava Curse: TRUE!

29

"False Prophets" part notably uncomfortable

by Separation of Powers in

so, service meeting last night.

bro handling the "false prophet" part was notably disturbed.

every time he spoke of previous "expectations" his body language was like "oh my god, can you believe i'm saying this?

Cold Steel

HamsterBait: Even the Revelation (anti)Climax book says that the anointed resurrected after 1918 have a part in transmitting new understanding to the BOrg in our day. They haven’t done a very good job have they?

I visited the JW website a year or two ago and the explanation given was that they don’t consider themselves prophets, nor do they produce anything that could be placed besides the Bible as scripture. Now, seeking to find that same caveat, I went to the website again today and, though it took me awhile to find it, it seems that the Governing Body is now putting itself on the same level as the ancient apostles. For example:

This is far more aggressive than it was previously. The Governing Body seems to be consolidating its power, but it needs to explain just how it got this inspiration. Certainly their claim to speak for God places them in the position of claiming to be prophets. And if they are prophets, what they write is as binding on people as the scriptures were in the days of the apostles. Why try to equivocate?

There is also an implied claim to be prophets in a 1979 - 80 Awake on alien life. After discussing the ideas on this, they say that there cannot be any alien life forms on other planets, because the “slave has not heard about this” and Jehovah will not do anything unless he informs his servants the prophets. (THEM in other words!)

Can you get me the reference on this. I’d love to see it. If the Awake! articles are written or overseen by the slave, why does the author of this story write as though the Governing Body doesn’t read it.

The scripture by Amos also is horribly abused. The Bible never claims to reveal everything to God’s servants, the prophets. Life on other worlds does not pertain to the inhabitants of this world, and I suspect that when God speaks to prophets on other worlds, he doesn’t reveal the affairs of this world. It would be like saying there are no black holes in the universe because the “slave has not heard about this.” There was a time when black holes were theoretical. None had been found, but astrophysicists said they were distinctly plausible. Well, the Governing Body hadn’t heard anything about them, so the logic expressed above is as foolish as trying to pin down the year of Armageddon! Geesh, the audacity of these guys. And the amazing thing is that they hide behind their publications. You don’t see articles by them where they take bold stands; they let their staff writers pass on the information so no one knows quite where this spiritual “food” is coming from. They say it’s from God, but their foundational claims are non-existent.

14

PROOF: JWs are NOT "God's Organization!" - (When Apostates Get Reinstated)

by Oubliette in

our good friend, raypublisher, just posted this thread: .

reinstatement hearing secretly recorded ... .

since i personally know the young woman involved, i was very interested.

Cold Steel

But what if one views "DoubleThink" as a paradox and not a contradiction? And can one lie if one actually believes the lie?

Sometimes light acts as particles, and sometimes it acts more like a wave. Both are contradictory, yet both apparently are true.

The JW credibility problem lies in its foundational claims. It actually denies being led by inspiration as the ancient church was, yet it refers to "new light." That new light comes from above and goes into the heads of the Governing Body members, then down to the fingers, where they then write Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Then those articles are set in huge publishing machines and get printed in a variety of languages using cheap ink and paper. Then you wake people up on Saturday mornings and give the publications to people who throw them away.

And thus is fulfilled John's scirpture which saith, "And I saw an angel in the midst of Heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to the nations of the earth...." See how wonderfully this all works? You get NEW LIGHT but it's not INSPIRED. It's like the old Nixon parody in which Nixon says, "I take full responsibility...but not the blame." The difference, he adds, is that people who are responsible keep their jobs, while those who are blamed do not!

I think it's amazing that the JW website actually states that their articles don't carry the weight of scripture, yet they tell everyone that they come from the same source. Yeeeesh!

29

"False Prophets" part notably uncomfortable

by Separation of Powers in

so, service meeting last night.

bro handling the "false prophet" part was notably disturbed.

every time he spoke of previous "expectations" his body language was like "oh my god, can you believe i'm saying this?

Cold Steel

"Jehovah's organization has never claimed to be inspired."

Tacit admission that the Organization is an empty vessel. BTW, does it say that anywhere on the Organization’s website?

I’m sure there are active, believing JWs here, lurking and reading...doesn’t this bother you? How can an organization talk about “new light” without being inspired?

In a theological sense, inspiration is defined as “Divine guidance or influence exerted directly on the mind and soul.”

The JWs would agree that the ancient apostles were guided and influenced by the Holy Spirit...or “active force” as they define it. Why would God, who never changes, all of a sudden, in our day, decide that He isn’t going to inspire anyone. Yet He will give them “new light.” And “light” in this case is defined as “A state of awareness or understanding, especially as derived from a particular source.”

A “particular source,” eh? And what might that be?

The JWs seem to be involved in what many people might say are “weasel words,” which here could be defined as “sneaky” or “evasive.”

But what could be the Organization’s motivation possibly be to bill themselves as the uninspired kingdom of Jehovah, which should be accepted on the testimony of...who? Do not the scriptures say that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established? And did not Amos say that surely the Lord God (or “Jehovah-God, if you wish) will do NOTHING save He will reveal it to His servants the prophets?

So it seems we have an uninspired organization that receives “new light” from a “particular source” that isn’t Jehovah.

I don’t blame anyone for choking on the words “false prophet” as it relates to religion in our day. But to state that one’s religious leaders aren’t inspired, in public, well, that’s another issue entirely! What are you guys paying them for? And why do you provide expense accounts, travel, and why would you spend hours studying the Watchtower and Awake! magazines?

As they say down South, “That just don’t hardly make no sense!”

BTW, I can find uninspired homeless people on the street who would work for a lot less money. Just fire the guys in Bethel first and I’ll send the other guys right over....

20

What is with Jeremiah 5:8 in the NWT

by HowTheBibleWasInvented in

as already posted im agnostic... but i find the texts of the bible the world's most famous book.. .

check jeremiah 5:8 out in the nwt.

while thismight now be shocking in the judean prophets what is shocking is this is a mojor addtion to the text to make it sound vile.

Cold Steel

Zagor:The NWT translation is not a good translation. It has changed the text to suit its own theological bias in many places.

Yes, even when it doesn't have an agenda, the NWT is a pitiful "translation." No one but the JWs take it seriously. Back in the early 70s, I had one. It was green and the ink rubbed off on one's hands. Is it the same version or have newer versions come out? I guess if one were baptized into the Organization, he or she would have to use the NWT. What a frightening thought!

15

Did Moses prophesy falsely? Is it always unforgivable?

by DATA-DOG in

Cold Steel

mP: Did God really write all those 613 laws in the Torah? Did God really write up a law about men shaving beards and did he really say it was ok to have slaves, rape women and so on?

You’ll have to ask specifically and give me the reference. Also describe what you mean by having slaves and, again, give me a reference. Are you including indentured servants? Also, I’m not aware of any laws in the Torah about raping women.

DATA-DOG: I am trying to write a letter for my family to break the spell that the GB have upon them. I am trying to show how they have committed the sin of being a false prophet, but at the same time not come across as being judgmental or disrespectful. If I can make them see that the WTBTS has claimed to be a prophet, and then prove that what they said did not come true, then it could be a step forward.

The question, for me, is that when Jehovah inspected all the religions on Earth and chose the WTBTS, just what were the mechanics involved in that? When I visit the Jehovah's Witnesses website and navigate to the frequently asked questions section, the questions posed are often couched in language that is, well, slippery. For example, you can know a religion is true because it promotes belief in the Bible, belief in true doctrine and whether it bears good fruit.

That may work fine for a Methodist, but if I were looking for a religion that exercised God’s authority, I’d want to find out how that religion got that authority and how God communicated it to mankind. Most Protestants see the church as a body. Some sects may be the feet, others the hands, eyes, ears and so forth. The “feet” may represent Christian sects that establish missions worldwide and who are on the go; the “hands” would be those who build up the body of Christ; the “eyes” would be sects who have great understanding of the Bible and history and the “ears” would be those Christians who hear God’s will and so forth. The Catholics and Orthodox faiths believe the authority was passed down in succession; Anglicans see the establishment of kings as defenders of the faith. Mormons believe that the authority was once on the earth but was lost, and could only be restored by heaven-sent messengers. Adventists believe authority to be established merely by receiving revelation and guidance from God. Thus, Ellen G. White, who received guidance from heaven that Christians were worshipping on the wrong day of the week, was able to establish an obedient church that meets on the “seventh day,” Saturday.

Even though the Jehovah's Witnesses don’t have an actual prophet who could point them in the right direction, its earliest leaders seized upon the name “Jehovah” as a distinct part of its worship. And unlike all the other sects, instead of concocting a way to receive divine authority, it simply assumed it. It’s leaders, as far as I know, have never claimed to have received any of the revelations as the first century apostles. I’m just amazed that none of the Jehovah's Witnesses has ever asked why! If God freely spoke through his servants in the first century, what possible reason would he have for not doing so now? Even after Jesus had died, been resurrected and ascended into heaven, the servants of God were continuing to receive revelation from God. Now, in our day, he establishes a church, or kingdom, and he doesn’t whisper a word of it to the Bible Students, to Charles T. Russell, or to Joseph Rutherford. Then the Lord creates a hierarchal command structure called the Governing Body and he utters not a word, neither did he reveal it to any of his servants anciently so they could write it down. “For surely the Lord God will do nothing save he shall reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)

Whether this type of reasoning will undermine the Governing Body as far as your family is concerned I don’t know. I do know that if I went out and bought myself a large yacht, slapped “U.S. Navy” on the side and walked aboard wearing a purloined Admiral’s uniform, I would no more be a real admiral than I would be the Pope of Rome!

Add to all this that these self-appointed representatives of the Lord can tell you what to read and not read, who you associate with, how your family and friends treat you, what you believe and don’t believe (whether it’s in the scriptures or not). Finally, everyone knows their reputation as prophets and prophecy, so we need not go into that.